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welcome to Sputnik orbiting the world
with me George Galloway gatri is still
away continuing her Research into global
warming this week the Prime Minister
announced that he had ordered the
extrajudicial killing of two Syrian
based British terrorists it was the
first ever such act but the PM assured
us it was perfectly legal even if he
couldn't show us how it puts Brit in the
elite company of Israel and the United
States as the only three countries in
the world incinerating people by drone
accompanying his announcement of the
return of the death penalty but without
charge or trial Mr Cameron said we'd
have to join the Syrian war against both
the Assad regime and the Isis Rebels he
promised hard military force though
whether our own or someone else's
remains unclear for Clarity on such such
matters it's always best to turn to the
stop the war Coalition and I'm joined
Now by one of their National officers
author and academic Dr Chris nyam Dr
Chris thanks for joining us am I right
are we headed into another yet another
War it looks like there's a serious
effort now to Garner enough votes in
Parliament to push through uh a vote to
to escalate the bombing of Syria of
course we are already at war in Syria
really I mean we've got special for is
on the ground we've been involved in
these drone attacks and in actual
military in bombings anyway yes with our
pilots flying uh under other people's
roundles unbelievably but now it seems
that they're going to try and make this
official um and uh it's incredible
because one of the things they're doing
is they're trying to use the refugee
crisis
unbelievably as a a kind of rationale
for more bombing when in fact the vast
majority of people know and even many
media commentators make it clear that
the me the the refugee crisis is a
product of the the Carnage that the West
has created in the last um well going
back 15 years in terms of the attacks in
the Middle East and Libya and and
elsewhere so I mean reality is being
stood on its head in order to justify
yet another War it's even worse than we
imagined though because if he had
announced this week uh that we were
going to be bombing Isis alone uh that
would be alarming enough given the
consequences of it that we've seen so
plentifully in Iraq and then in Libya uh
but he actually said that that we're
going to make war against both sides in
this war which begins to sound a bit
complicated and a bit daunting uh after
all the Syrian regime is supported by
Russia by Iran by Hezbollah but it has a
powerful Army that's been fighting now
for 5 years does the queen really have
enough soldiers to uh go into that kind
of War on two fronts seems mad it's
extraordinary I mean you know a lot of
MPS said one of the reasons they didn't
they voted against it last time around
in 2013 was because there wasn't a plan
well if there wasn't a plan then there
really is no idea no strategy whatsoever
it strikes me this is partly being put
together for domestic consumption partly
I think this is a response to the
potential of Corbin being Jeremy Corbin
being the leader of the labor party come
the weekend and I think you know to a
large extent this is driven by domestic
considerations and
also I think we you know Cameron managed
to put a brave face on it back in 2013
but I think the fact that Parliament uh
under pressure from the population
overturned his effort to start bombing
Syria uh two years ago caus them
consternation actually because I don't
think they like being told by Parliament
that they can't fight Wars and I think
to some extent this is Revenge well I I
I I was there as you know speaking in
that debate you were uh with our other
colleagues marshalling the the crowds
outside it was a considerable victory
that we uh rightly celebrated but then
the proposal was that we become isis's
Air Force that we bomb the regime uh
effectively assisting Isis into Power
you you would have thought that such a
ludicrous uh idea would have put them
off but no they've come back for more
and in the last few days it's become
clear that Russia is deep deepening its
relations with the Syrian regime
stepping up military cooperation so we
begin to see an
internationalization uh the official
internationalization of this conflict
which must be pregnant with very very
serious consequences potentially no I
think it's it's potentially catastrophic
I mean you can already see in this in a
slight tangent the way in which war is
spreading through the region with the
with what is I believe verging on a
Civil War in in Turkey now which was
partly a product of the fact that NATO
because they wanted to draw turkey into
some sort of anti-isis Alliance were
prepared to allow turkey to attack the
Kurds openly and that has un
understandably created a reaction so
that now means that you know there's
there's mobs of people attacking Kurds
on the streets of uh of Turkish cities
that's a a conflict that is beginning to
be militarized so I mean the the
internationalization of the civil war in
Syria is absolutely the last thing that
we need it's the thing that is going to
potentially spread War across the region
it's the thing that is going to create
more chaos more Carnage across the
Middle East and of course it's the thing
that is going to cause the most
bitterness and anger on the ground and
therefore lead to uh the potential
spread of jihadism and the spread of
terrorism the very things we're told
that this war is being fought against so
it's completely irrational the spread of
this fanaticism this adism is of course
a clear and present danger everywhere
including here in our uh own country the
point is that what you do about it
should make the problem less rather than
more uh as normal it seems we've chosen
the very weapon that's likely to
increase enhance extremism an
extrajudicial assassination of two
British citizens perhaps three
uh on the pretext that they were
planning a terrorist attack on events
which had already taken place by the
time of the
assassinations uh legal Assurance from
the attorney that it was perfectly legal
but which we can't be shown and all
based on intelligence from the same
people who brought us the weapons of
mass destruction Canard this drone
attack draws us deeper into this Vortex
doesn't it like so often in these cases
The Narrative you know what is it a few
days after the event is beginning to
unravel I mean as you say we were trying
to prevent apparently an attack that had
already happened that makes no sense it
also makes no sense that these people
were able to launch an attack in Britain
from Syria uh we're told that they had
collaborators why weren't those
collaborators arrested and why weren't
they brought in front of a uh a court um
we're supposed to have due process there
is no in my as my understanding is there
is no policy of execution on suspicion
in this country at the moment and yet
that is exactly what happened there
seems to me to be no just at the level
of the kind of you know the legality of
this there's there's clearly no
justification for what happened it seems
to me that this this incident was all
part of the attempt to beat the drum of
War for further attacks on Syria is to
create this impression that somehow
Syria is um you know so militarized so
dangerous that 45 minutes away from
Attack ex exactly I mean all the
memories of what happened in Iraq you
have the Attorney General gave the
go-ahead for the legal advice for the
legality of the war back in 2003 in the
end under Jess we had the security
services and the intelligence people
telling us that were these uh weapons of
mass destruction all that turned out to
be fabricated and once again it's very
important I think that people use their
critical faculties and don't allow
themselves to be drawn into what is now
becoming a kind of media hysteria around
the question of of of of bombing Syria
that's really in the end of the day what
I think all this is about and as you say
so grotesque is it that the sun hater of
all
refugees uh and immigrants is using the
Dreadful image of the little boy drowned
on the beach as a badge to support their
campaign for more war and War now uh
using the victims of war as a recruiting
s
for more
war we're not going to persuade David
Cameron is there any possibility that
enough conservative MPS will Rebel and
break ranks on this and is there a
possibility that labor will solidly vote
against war in Syria well I mean I I
think the narrative and the the argument
and the rhetoric being put forward is so
threadbear that I think it is up for
grabs and I definitely feel at the level
of public opinion there a big shift I
mean public opinion in General on these
interventions is very very good in
Britain overall but I think just in the
last couple of weeks there's been first
of all a massive shift in people's
attitude to the whole Refugee crisis I
think people are joining the dots they
are recognizing that if you look at the
countries of origin the three or four
top countries of origins of these
refugees they're all water on countries
Syria Afghanistan and some of the
statistics um Somalia you know these are
countries that have Iraq that have been
devastated by by the wars and I think
people are making those links so it's up
for grabs and I think uh the point is
we've got to do just as we did in 2013
we've got to put maximum pressure on uh
on the politicians and we've got to
Lobby them and protest and try and twist
their arm to make them realize that
they've got to represent public opinion
rather than um the prejudices and and
and and mad policies that are coming um
from White Hall and from Washington now
I think this is a very open question the
obviously the Corbin surge is another
testimony to the level of concern and
questioning there is about um the the
record of recent British foreign policy
so you know I I very much hope Jeremy
does get elected on Saturday I guess he
probably will we've got to use that as a
way of launching a really massive
campaign because that won't be the end
of it they're going to try and undermine
him they're already trying to twist the
arms of some of the um labor backbenches
to get them on side there's going to be
a big battle of hearts and Minds in the
next few weeks we've got to be out on
the streets making sure we put maximum
pressure on well the stop the war
Coalition uh of which I'm one claimed
and I think rightly that we helped ease
Tony Blair out of the door of the labor
leadership our president Jeremy Corbin
by the time of the later editions of
this program today uh hopefully will be
the new leader of the labor party as you
look back now over the last Dozen Years
that we've been uh doing this more than
more than a dozen years 14 do you think
the stop the war feeling in Britain is
here to stay I do I think there has been
a a sea change over the last 15 as you
say 14 years and which is partly
obviously a a kind
of sort of like spontaneous response to
the disasters of the war that have been
created in Afghanistan and Iraq but I
also think it's been built on by the
campaigning I think as well that
response that people have had to the
refugees in the last couple of weeks is
testimony again to a kind of critical
understanding amongst large numbers of
people in Britain about what foreign
policy does so I think there's lots you
know there's lots of Hope um in terms of
people people are really quite engaged
in these in these questions it's been
quite dominant in the in the whole labor
leadership election actually which is
interesting it has uh indeed Dr Chris NM
thanks for joining us on the Sputnik
after the break it's race and the police
it never goes away you
know welcome back to Sputnik the
question of race and policing is seldom
far from the headlines in Britain and
particularly so in London deaths in
custody deaths before custody stop and
search Powers it's not that we are
Ferguson Missouri but that we are on the
same road Britain's most prominent black
leader is my old comrade Lee Jasper and
he joins us now on the Sputnik to
discuss this Lee thanks for coming back
on board let me tell you what happened
to me this week on a national radio show
I asked all the Tory hopefuls for London
mayor Zach Goldsmith and the also rans
uh a question my question was my
experience of the police in London has
been a good one almost invariably but
then I've got blue eyes a white face and
a white collar the experience of
hundreds of thousands maybe millions of
other londoners is not the same and if
you're honest enough to acknowledge this
I said to them uh you need to tell us
what you're going to do about it every
one of them Zack Goldsmith and the
others tried to say that things are much
much better now in London than they were
before on the question of race and
policing is that true no it's painly
untrue and it shows that they've not
mastered their brief in in seeking to
govern a multicultural city a multifaith
city like London uh increasing race hate
crimes particularly Islam attacks on
Muslim women up 70% race ha attacks more
generally up incredible uh numbers
number of black police officers in
London down from what it was at its peak
in 2007 n uh net increase in Black
offices in the Met I'm afraid not it's a
net loss so we're losing those that are
at the 30 year retirement age and we're
not recruiting at the bottom end to
bring them in uh the requirement that
you fund your police foundation course
out of your own pocket uh for new
recruits has had an obvious effect on
black and ethnic minority communities
who uh struggle with high unemployment
and high rates of poverty and then you
have the fact that under Boris Johnson's
tenure we've seen the worst
deterioration in relations between black
communities and the police and if you
look at public confidence in to hamlets
in Brixton in place like Lamberth in
hatney in haringay the key symbolic
areas where big black and ethnic
minority communities public trust and
confidence of black and ethnic minority
communities has gone down to its lowest
level so had they taken their time to do
their homework they would have found
that there are more race complaints
against the Met now than any other time
in its history there are a declining
number of black and ethnic minority
officers and that'll get worse as we
have loss of officers that uh public
confidence and trusting them from those
communities is the worst it's ever been
and that we are no better off now than
we are in the immediate aftermath of
Mark Dugen I'm speaking at uh one of uh
you're in perpetual motion on these
issues one of your many campaigns is
about a new incident uh which has uh
Arisen uh about a shooting in Lambeth
which seems to have begun over a row
over renters tell us about that well on
the Friday the 21st of August we had a
standoff on a housing estate Tilton
Gardens which is in the south of
Lamberth we had a standoff between armed
police and an individual in a flat
subsequently he was shot by the police
after a 9-hour standoff um we've
subsequently learned that this was a
30-year-old black man that he'd been
subject to an eviction from his property
and that uh being homeless he'd gone
back to the property uh his neighbors
tell does that he's a quiet lad he's not
known to the police as far as we know um
he's uh uh their impression was of him
he was as good as gold and very quiet um
they tell me that uh he got back into
the property because the Housing
Association Metropolitan Housing
Association who owns the estate didn't
change the locks and so it's keyw worked
uh and being homeless as you can imagine
having nowhere to stay he returned to
the property maybe to pick up some
things or whatever
was visited at that time while he was in
the property by a housing officer who'
brought along the police now I don't
understand what police have got to do
with civil matters of eviction uh and uh
but nevertheless they were brought along
H the police reported that they saw a
weapon we still don't know whether this
weapon was in a kitchen drawer whether
it was a water gun a spud gun or whether
he was waving about manically and
threatening sh we know nothing and um he
was subsequently shot four times
Mark You by High Caliber Weaponry how
this young man well not so young but how
this man is still alive is beyond me he
was shot four times and the subsequent
clampdown by the Metropolitan Police the
independent police Comm compession means
we know virtually nothing about the
circumstances in which a man can
ostensibly be be shot on in his own home
over a matter that is trival Trivial uh
H so we're deeply perplexed in in in
Lamberth
um and because Boris Johnson abolished
all police consultative groups after
April last year there was a response uh
uh recommendation by Lord scarman post
1981 to maintain Communications
precisely at times like this because
they are now abolished we have no means
of finding out what the detail of what
actually happened is and we're demanding
that they bring that detail forward and
it's the vacuum uh of information which
is then filled by anger
and UL which leads to the kind of
problems that do happen in Ferguson
Missouri uh recently and have happened
in our own country in our own City many
times punctuated maybe a decade in
between them but it's exactly the kind
of flash point that you want to avoid
well it's interesting because post mark
Dugen we were told by the commissioner
that he wanted to be the most
transparent Police Service in the world
and Boris Johnson the Home Secretary and
others said we're going to introduce
body cam videos for officers so that we
can film exactly what's happening as a
means of reassuring communities who in
the wake of Mark duan's you know bizarre
inquest verdict he didn't have a gun but
he was lawfully killed this nobody still
understands uh that one could uh seek to
reassure communities that officers were
operating at the highest level of
professionalism there were 13 body cam
videos in this particular shooting for
this young man and the uh ipcc and the
Metropolitan Police Service now told us
that those videos will be used as
evidence which means they can't possibly
be used for reassuring people about what
actually happened in a timely fashion it
will be some two to three years after
the event when all the legal proceedings
around his case have have come to a
conclusion uh and so even the good
practice that we managed to secure for
them where have officers where body cams
now becomes largely redundant as a means
of reassurance simply because it's now
going to be treated as evidence and we
won't be able to see it until the end of
any trial we have a a situation which
I've heard you Adam bre before on the
issue of stop and search which again
these Tory meril hopefuls were
indicating had been fantastically
reduced 2/3 reduced uh where first of
all black and minority ethnic people are
far more likely to be stopped and
searched if they're found for example
with cannabis far more likely to be
charged if charged tell us I've heard
you give this set of Statistics which
frankly is mindboggling well stop and
search in London as a whole is going
down but it's going down for white
people it's going up for black people
even within the overall figure so that's
your answer to the detail uh but if you
are stopt and search the
disproportionality in terms of charging
black and ethnic minority citizens
citizens you and I are first time
offenders so we have no previous record
we steal a loaf of bread I am more
likely to be charged and sent for trial
you're more likely to receive a caution
uh talking to and and sent on your way
home and this disproportionality happens
around a whole area of criminality but
it's most uh acute and and extensive in
the area of drugs so if you get a
firsttime offender and 5 pound bag of
cannabis and I have the same with
firsttime offenders I go to court you
get a caution if I get caught with A10
pound bag of cocaine H and and so do you
and we're firsttime offenders I am then
70% more likely to be sent to court to
face trial than you are you more likely
to be receive a caution and the really
interesting thing about that is the
ministry of Justice statistics on race
and Criminal Justice System says not
only is that disproportionality in
charging confirmed but if you're white
and you have a antecedence of criminal
activity you're still less likely to go
to court than a black person with no
antecedence or with a lesser antecedence
than you have and these are the
government's own figures which I uh look
at with great interest but can only
assume that they're grow woful
underestimates of the reality of what's
going on so we have a War on Drugs that
is a war on black and ethnic minority
peoples we have a war on terror that is
exactly the same thing a war on black
and ethnic minority peoples we have dis
proportionate charging of black people
for like for- like crimes in white to my
mind this is almost a sort of if you
like a soft apartheid policing whereas
we're equal citizens in the same city
but God forbid we meet up with the
Metropolitan Police because one of us
will be uh heading for that uh criminal
justice system in pretty short order the
and the other will not uh the last
question what can be done about this uh
the the recruitment of significant
numbers of black and minority ethnic
officers has gone into reverse as you
have pointed out I didn't know that
myself last night or I made that point
gone into reverse is there a culture
developing because there's such a
perception of racism in the police that
black and minority ethnic people don't
want to join the police because their
Community might somehow be offended if
they do no two things happen black
people were joining the police force
when Ken Livingston was mayor we made a
determined effort to increase we
increased black and ethnic minority
Police recruitment by 100% between 2004
and 2007 so we know how to do it we know
what inspires confidence the problem is
is that once the officers were in the
force they were disproportionately
disciplined uh as a consequence so the
example of uh the Firearms officer Carol
Howard who was fitted up by her
colleagues on charges of sexually
abusing her own child found to be
completely ex innocent of all charges
and exonerated and walked away that is
the working culture in which black
officers are enduring and because the
commissioner of police and the met and
the mayor of London Boris Johnson sarly
announced in 2009 that institutionalized
racism is no longer a problem for the
police what we've seen is a Resurgence
of the culture of racism within the
workplace the police canteen type
culture uh a a stripping away of the
mcferson monitoring policy Frameworks uh
that made sure that where that continued
to be a problem one could apply pressure
and because of boris's and the
commissioner's lack of commitment to
real anti-racism in placing what we've
seen is a resurgent culture of
institutionalized racism make itself
parent in the Met police well we'll have
to see what we can do about all this me
J thank you very much for joining us on
the
Sputnik alas we've run out of time and
that's the end of the show God willing
I'll be back again next week it's been
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